{"id":572027,"date":"2010-05-20T09:04:00","date_gmt":"2010-05-20T13:04:00","guid":{"rendered":"tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1752027331714385066.post-5166000639222237300"},"modified":"2010-05-20T09:04:01","modified_gmt":"2010-05-20T13:04:01","slug":"frank-popper-on-shrinking-cities","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/572027","title":{"rendered":"Frank Popper on Shrinking Cities"},"content":{"rendered":"
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I have posted on the Poppers work on the Buffalo Commons concept a couple of years back.  Here he is addressing the deteriation of the urban environment in the <\/span>Midwest<\/span><\/st1:place> in particular.  It is well worth a read.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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The problem as we presently experience it is one of a lack of a well thought out and sustained economic base.  It has been far too easy to just let growth happen and when the drivers of that growth dissipated it became too late to respond.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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Perhaps cities are meant to be more ephemeral than we would like.  Certainly that was true in the small towns of the <\/span>Great Plains<\/span><\/st1:place> and in the Canadian Prairies in particular.  Cities were meant to last longer.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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The core problem is a lack of a working community template that is inherently stable and also responsive.  I think that I can make this happen in a rural environment and distribute urban populations into that environment.  Such a system may then support the urban environment.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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China<\/span><\/st1:country-region> seems to have achieved something like this out of centuries of custom, as perhaps has <\/span>India<\/span><\/st1:country-region> and <\/span>Europe<\/span><\/st1:place>.  None of it is properly supported nor even properly encouraged but it is still more stable than the North American experience.     <\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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The first failure of the <\/span>US<\/span><\/st1:place><\/st1:country-region> urban environment is the existence of a large proportion of impoverished residents who are poorly utilized as a source of general community wealth generation.  Their housing is typically substandard and access to services can be described as grudging.  Yet they see the city as their only hope and remain.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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This group can naturally be folded into a proper agro village style environment were their presence is economically fruitful and support is inexpensive to provide by design.  They also supply the one resource presently missing in modern agriculture and that is occasional manpower.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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Modern transportation accesses the urban amenities including urban employment.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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The simple idea is to marry a  modern high rise village compound to a working farm integrating the two as much as may be possible and even desirable while providing a fruitful life way for all age groups.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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This is presently not done in the urban environment and is not feasible on the modern farm. I argue that this is the primary source of the lack of sustainability.<\/o:p><\/span><\/div>\n
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An Interview with Frank Popper about Shrinking Cities, <\/span><\/b>Buffalo<\/span><\/b><\/st1:placename> <\/span><\/b>Commons<\/span><\/b><\/st1:placetype>, and the Future of <\/span><\/b>Flint<\/span><\/b><\/st1:city><\/st1:place><\/o:p><\/span><\/u><\/i><\/div>\n
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FRIDAY, MAY 14, 2010<\/span><\/span><\/i><\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
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Deborah and Frank Popper<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
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http:\/\/www.flintexpats.com\/2010\/05\/interview-with-frank-popper-about.html<\/a><\/p>\n

What do shrinking cities like Flint<\/st1:city> have in common with remote grazing land in Colorado<\/st1:state><\/st1:place>?<\/p>\n

Frank J. Popper<\/span><\/a> is just the person to answer that question. The land-use expert from Chicago<\/st1:city> is a professor at Rutger\u2019s Edward<\/st1:placename> J.<\/st1:placename> Bloustein<\/st1:placename> School<\/st1:placetype> of Planning and Public Policy and teaches regularly in the Environmental Studies Program at Princeton<\/st1:place>. In 1987 he published an article with his wife, Deborah Popper<\/span><\/a>, a geographer at City<\/st1:placetype> University<\/st1:placetype> of New York<\/st1:state> and Princeton<\/st1:placename> University<\/st1:placetype><\/st1:place>, advocating the creation of what they called the Buffalo Commons<\/span><\/a>. They argued that using the drier portions of the Great Plains<\/st1:place> for farming and ranching was unsustainable, leading to environmental damage and a dwindling population. Instead, they suggested returning 139,000 square miles of the Great Plains<\/st1:place> to native prairie where the buffalo could, once again, roam. In short, they wanted to turn parts of ten western states into a vast nature preserve.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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Nicholas Kristof of The New York Times<\/span> called it \u201cthe boldest idea in America<\/st1:country-region> today\u2026the biggest step to redefine America<\/st1:country-region> since the Alaska<\/st1:state><\/st1:place> purchase.\u201d The locals is states like Kansas<\/st1:state>, Montana<\/st1:state> and Nebraska<\/st1:state><\/st1:place> were less enthused.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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In an interview with Flint<\/st1:city><\/st1:place> Expatriates, Popper discusses death threats, the links between deindustrialization and agricultural decline, the fate of shrinking cities, and the heartless genius of capitalism.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n


<\/span><\/i>What was the response to the Buffalo Commons idea?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n
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It was extremely negative in the region. Everyone else from outside the region thought it was a great idea. There was a period in the early nineties when we were speaking in the plains five times a year and sooner or later it would emerge that they had hired private detectives to protect us. We had death threats at one meeting that eventually had to be cancelled. If you\u2019re county is suggested as part of the Buffalo Commons, you\u2019re not going to like it very much.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n


<\/span><\/i>Have conditions in the Great Plains<\/st1:place> changed over the years?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

The basic conditions that we described in 1987 are either still there or have intensified. But late last year we picked up our first serious editorial endorsement. Two McClatchy papers in Kansas City and Wichita suggested that two counties in western Kansas should become the core of Buffalo Commons National Park, and that elicited a lot of letters from those two counties. But I think over time it will work and we will live to see it.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

<\/span><\/i>The emerging ideas about how to deal with shrinking cities like Flint<\/st1:city> echo a lot of your recommendations from the eighties about how to approach the Great Plains<\/st1:place>. What\u2019s the connection?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

It\u2019s very clear that the industrial decline as it\u2019s still unfolding is almost exactly parallel to the earlier rural decline in the United States<\/st1:country-region><\/st1:place>. In rural areas, agriculture reached a high point<\/st1:place><\/st1:city> in the late 19th century, and then it started going through a kind of slow motion collapse that the country largely didn\u2019t realize until the dust bowl of the depression. In the 20th century, the industrial sector likewise hits its high point<\/st1:city> and then started shedding people, only it happened in more urban places like Detroit<\/st1:place><\/st1:city>. The U.S.<\/st1:place><\/st1:country-region> had these two great cycles play out. And there is the beginning of an argument that the dotcom bust, the mortgage foreclosure crisis and the credit crunch that has now hit a number of sunbelt cities really hard indicates that the information age is beginning to shed people, too. And it\u2019s a largely suburban phenomena so you have a trifecta of decline \u2014 rural agricultural, urban industrial, and suburban information age.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

<\/span><\/i>Why are cities and regions so reluctant to accept that they are getting smaller?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n
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It\u2019s part of American culture to believe were number one, we grow every year etc., etc. So all of this \u2014 whether its Buffalo<\/st1:placename> Commons<\/st1:placetype><\/st1:place> or shrinking cities \u2014 feels very un-American. A lot of people ended up describing Buffalo Commons as manifest destiny in reverse, which kind of makes sense. Shrinking cities could be described as unbuilding cities that all those late 19th-centrury, early 20th-century industrialists and laborers sought to build up. And that hurts for their descendants down the line. It also comes with another sort of sting. Good blue-collar jobs that promised upward mobility have just disappeared.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

http:\/\/3.bp.blogspot.com\/_RBw-psMN_Ew\/S-2DPSCCzoI\/AAAAAAAAHjI\/TeRzMDtrFrA\/s400\/populationdensity+map.jpg<\/a><\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
A population density map of the United States<\/st1:country-region><\/st1:place>. Click to enlarge<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
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How does America<\/st1:place><\/st1:country-region>\u2019s approach shrinking cities compare to the rest of the world?<\/span><\/i><\/b><\/p>\n

I think the American way is to do nothing until it\u2019s too late, then throw everything at it and improvise and hope everything works. And somehow, insofar as the country\u2019s still here, it has worked. But the European or the Japanese way would involve much more thought, much more foresight, much more central planning, and much less improvising. They would implement a more, shall we say, sustained effort. The American way is different. Europeans have wondered for years and years why cities like Detroit<\/st1:city> or Cleveland<\/st1:place><\/st1:city> are left to rot on the vine. There\u2019s a lot of this French hauteur when they ask \u201cHow\u2019d you let this happen?\u201d<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>Do shrinking cities have any advantages over agricultural regions as they face declining populations?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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The urban areas have this huge advantage over all these larger American regions that are going through this. They have actual governments with real jurisdiction. Corrupt as Detroit<\/st1:city> or Philadelphia<\/st1:city> or Camden<\/st1:place><\/st1:city> may be, they have actual governments that are supposed to be in charge of them. Who\u2019s in charge of western Kansas<\/st1:place><\/st1:state>? Who\u2019s in charge of the Great Plains<\/st1:place>? Who is in charge of the lower Mississippi<\/st1:state> Delta or central Appalachia<\/st1:place>? All they\u2019ve got are these distant federal agencies whose past performance is not exactly encouraging.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>Why wasn\u2019t there a greater outcry as the agricultural economy and the industrial economy collapsed?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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One reason for the rest of the country not to care is that there\u2019s no shortage of the consumer goods that these places once produced. All this decline of agriculture doesn\u2019t mean we\u2019re running out of food. We\u2019ve got food coming out of our ears. Likewise, Flint<\/st1:place><\/st1:city> has suffered through all this, but it\u2019s not like it\u2019s hard to buy a car in this country. It\u2019s not as if Flint<\/st1:place><\/st1:city> can behave like a child and say \u201cI\u2019m going to hold my nose and stop you from getting cars until you do the right thing.\u201d Flint<\/st1:place><\/st1:city> died and you can get zero A.P.R. financing. Western Kansas is on its last legs and, gee, cereal is cheaper than ever.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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In some sense that\u2019s the genius of capitalism \u2014 it\u2019s heartless. But if you look at the local results and the cultural results and the environmental results you shake your head. But I don\u2019t see America<\/st1:place><\/st1:country-region> getting away from what I would call a little sarcastically the \u201cwisdom\u201d of the market. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s going to change.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>So is there any large-scale economic fallout from these monumental changes?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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Probably not, and it hurts to say so. And the only way I can feel good about saying that is to immediately point to the non-economic losses, the cultural losses. The losses of ways of life. The notion of the factory worker working for his or her children. The notion of the farmer working to build up the country and supply the rest of the world with food. We\u2019re losing distinctive ways of life. When we lose that we lose something important, but it\u2019s not like The Wall Street Journal cares. And I feel uncomfortable saying that. From a purely economic point of view, it\u2019s just the price of getting more efficient. It\u2019s a classic example of Schumpeter\u2019s theory of creative destruction<\/span><\/a>, which is no fun if you\u2019re on the destruction end.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>Does the decline of cities like Flint<\/st1:city> mirror the death of the middle class in the United States<\/st1:country-region><\/st1:place>?<\/span><\/i><\/b>

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I think it\u2019s more the decline of the lower-middle class in the United States<\/st1:place><\/st1:country-region>. Even when those jobs in the auto factories paid very high wages they were still for socially lower-middle-class people. I think there was always the notion in immigrant families and working-class families who worked in those situations that the current generation would work hard so that the children could go off and not have to do those kind of jobs. And when those jobs paid well that was a perfectly reasonable ambition. It\u2019s the cutting off of that ambition that really hurts now. The same thing has been true on farms and ranches in rural parts of the united states<\/st1:country-region><\/st1:place>.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n
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<\/span><\/i>The basic premise of shrinking cities resonates with a lot of people, but there\u2019s not a lot detail in the plan. Is this a concern?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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The shrinking city approach is really the core of what\u2019s needed to improve these places. I guess what I see is an emerging movement that\u2019s improvising every step of the way, often under extreme political pressure. My sense is that it\u2019s sort of like Boris Yeltsin in the \u201890s, making it up as he goes along because he has no other options. That\u2019s not meant as a criticism at all. Cities like Flint<\/st1:city> and Detroit<\/st1:city><\/st1:place> have gotten so desperate that a lot of policy Hail Mary\u2019s are necessary. And it\u2019s hard in an era of budget shortfalls, but part of the process will be figuring out what does and doesn\u2019t work. The shrinking city [concept] is sufficiently new that things will be discovered on the fly. And this is not uncommon. My impression is that that\u2019s how the Civil War was fought; that\u2019s how the New Deal was created. It\u2019s how NASA operated in the 1960s, which is thought of as a sort of golden age. This is not an unusual situation.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>What about the prospect of a single business or industry moving into a shrinking city and reviving it?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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In none of these cities \u2014 including the Southern and European ones \u2014 is there any hope whatsoever of a serious new industry coming. I think I can say that categorically.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>Will relocating residents to a more viable central urban core work?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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When you\u2019re talking about many of these neighborhoods, you\u2019re talking about really poor people who are not likely to move. We\u2019ve tried this at different times and different places in this country, and I don\u2019t think any of them were shining points in American history. It evokes all that 1950s urban renewal stuff which didn\u2019t work, but we keep trying to do anyway. More likely is that you\u2019ll get this reversion to a more rural feel to parts of the city, maybe even a suburban feel. That could provide some form of stability for the city. It could even be a retirement option for some people.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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<\/span><\/i>Care to make a prediction of how this approach will play out in cities like Flint<\/st1:city><\/st1:place>?<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/b><\/div>\n

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I think a few neighborhoods will benefit and things will turn around precisely because the upside of the shrinking city plan \u2014 the green economics, the growth of small retail \u2014 will work. But the really poor places, the worst neighborhoods, they\u2019ve got real problems, as they always have. I would worry about the really poor ones. I don\u2019t know what will happen to places like that, and I\u2019m not of good conscience about it.<\/o:p><\/span><\/i><\/div>\n

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I have posted on the Poppers work on the Buffalo Commons concept a couple of years back.  Here he is addressing the deteriation of the urban environment in the Midwest in particular.  It is well worth a read. The problem as we presently experience it is one of a lack of a well thought out […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":7011,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[7],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-572027","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-news"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/572027","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/7011"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=572027"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/572027\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=572027"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=572027"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mereja.media\/index\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=572027"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}